Shoulders after Chest.. HOW??

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  • March 31, 2008 at 9:55 am #956

    Dunno about you guys, but its taken me 2 years somewhat to realize gaining strength in shoulders after training chest is Futile.

    If I’m doing shoulders now, It has to be first thing workout, or else I just stay on the same weight for yonks. EG. Military press first thing is 70 or so kgs, but after 6 sets on the chest, that weight drops to 60 or under for the same amount of reps.

    Right now im dong a 9wk triphase routine of Volume, Intensity, Frequency, each go for 3weeks. The volume part was traditional 4day split, so i had to keep shoulders after chest as I had nowhere else to put them. The intensity part is a UpperA/B lower A/B type split, so i can put shoulders on the leg day.

    Anyone else have this thing happening, and what did you do?

    March 31, 2008 at 8:23 pm #6169

    Shoulders every training day – last.

    One tri-set: Lateral raise 6-8, seated lat raise machine 8-10, lateral raise cable 12-15.

    This worked a treat for about 3 or 4 weeks although I must confess I sometimes added sets on none chest days.

    March 31, 2008 at 10:25 pm #6170

    This is one huge reason guys go for drugs, to get that extra drive on such occaisions. “Not that theres anything wrong with that!”

    I am suspicious about this, its like when this kind of routine is done, and it doesnt compare to doing the exercises on seperate days, feelings tell you you failed, but I think that muscle increase is still going on but a little slower.

    To stay with the faster rate, a re-shuffle of the exercise or the day you do it is all you can do about it. Alternately going with the slower rate (and disregarding the bad feelings of loss), is quite viable. Just get used to it. DA

    April 1, 2008 at 9:27 am #6171

    Your shoulders are weaker after chest because they have been used. At least one head of the delt has. (The only head that should be weak after chest training is the anterior head.) This is an advantage, not a disadvantage as you are treating it at present.

    You have already stimulated a growth response in your anterior delt by this stage. Don’t try to train it heavy. Use lighter weight or alternative movements.

    I am not a believer in heavy overhead pressing.

    The other two heads should be unaffected by chest training and can be trained as normal.

    Don’t train delts heavy before chest. That will spell disaster for your chest results because chest gets little stimulation from a delt workout.

    Alternatively, change your split

    Chest
    Back
    rest
    Arms and delts
    Legs
    Rest
    repeat

    April 1, 2008 at 2:26 pm #6172

    @Bull wrote:

    I am not a believer in heavy overhead pressing.

    Why is that? Overhead pressing is king of shoulder developement IMO, not to mention core benfits when done standing.

    April 3, 2008 at 7:37 am #6173

    One, my shoulders don’t like it at all.

    Two, I’m far from convinced about its role in shoulder development. It really only loads the anterior head and that gets more than enough work with other pressing movements.

    If it works for you then by all means keep it up.

    I just think that it is over emphasised by a lot of people. How many trainers have you seen with underdeveloped front delts?

    April 3, 2008 at 9:14 am #6174

    Buff,
    I’ve had similar feelings. For me my shoulders improved by doing:-

    My training Upper / Lower (+ extra delts) split

    Upper (After Chest)
    Bent over Laterals 3×10
    Wide Grip Upright Rows (Slight Lean Forward) 2×10

    Lower
    Seated Side Laterals 3×10-12 Supersetted with
    Seated Behind Neck Press 3×10

    Basically, I trained delts every training session. After 4 weeks I dropped the 2nd session, then added back with new variations.

    No exercise was done to complete failure.

    April 4, 2008 at 1:38 am #6175

    @Chad wrote:

    Buff,
    Upper (After Chest)
    Bent over Laterals 3×10
    Wide Grip Upright Rows (Slight Lean Forward) 2×10

    Lower
    Seated Side Laterals 3×10-12 Supersetted with
    Seated Behind Neck Press 3×10

    I thought upright rows and behind neck presses were bad for the rotator cuffs?

    My whole concern with shoulder workouts is that I want to get WIDER in the shoulders.

    April 4, 2008 at 3:31 am #6176

    @unbuff wrote:

    @Chad wrote:

    Buff,
    Upper (After Chest)
    Bent over Laterals 3×10
    Wide Grip Upright Rows (Slight Lean Forward) 2×10

    Lower
    Seated Side Laterals 3×10-12 Supersetted with
    Seated Behind Neck Press 3×10

    I thought upright rows and behind neck presses were bad for the rotator cuffs?

    My whole concern with shoulder workouts is that I want to get WIDER in the shoulders.

    Then you need to target the medial head. Lateral raises and upright rows are what you need to place your emphasis on. Remember that the delt is a very small muscle, especially when the different heads are taken individually, and it operates at a great mechanical disadvantage so you need to be careful with weight and use very strict form.

    There are plenty of other muscles that will take over and help the deltoid out if you aren’t careful, literally from your ankles to your ears. ๐Ÿ˜€

    April 4, 2008 at 11:41 am #6177

    @Bull wrote:

    One, my shoulders don’t like it at all.

    Two, I’m far from convinced about its role in shoulder development. It really only loads the anterior head and that gets more than enough work with other pressing movements.

    If it works for you then by all means keep it up.

    I just think that it is over emphasised by a lot of people. How many trainers have you seen with underdeveloped front delts?

    Once the bar passes head height, it should be moving directly overhead. Having the elbows pointing forward during the lift assists this. If you are locking out correctly above the head, activating the traps, the bar should be directly overhead, and the anterior head is definitely not taking the entire load.

    That said, I do hear what you are saying, and if you don’t like them, so be it, but I’ll put your question back to you with a different slant. How many trainers have you seen who can overhead press decent numbers that have under developed delts?

    April 4, 2008 at 1:45 pm #6178

    @Bull wrote:

    @unbuff wrote:

    @Chad wrote:

    Buff,
    Upper (After Chest)
    Bent over Laterals 3×10
    Wide Grip Upright Rows (Slight Lean Forward) 2×10

    Lower
    Seated Side Laterals 3×10-12 Supersetted with
    Seated Behind Neck Press 3×10

    I thought upright rows and behind neck presses were bad for the rotator cuffs?

    My whole concern with shoulder workouts is that I want to get WIDER in the shoulders.

    Then you need to target the medial head. Lateral raises and upright rows are what you need to place your emphasis on. Remember that the delt is a very small muscle, especially when the different heads are taken individually, and it operates at a great mechanical disadvantage so you need to be careful with weight and use very strict form.

    There are plenty of other muscles that will take over and help the deltoid out if you aren’t careful, literally from your ankles to your ears. ๐Ÿ˜€

    Do the middle heads respond better to a lot of volume? With high reps? or is this another complicated ‘work whats best for you’ bodybuilding thing.

    With that said, I’ll try Dr J’s triset thing now, when I bulk again in 3 – 4 weeks time.

    April 4, 2008 at 10:23 pm #6179

    @DanOz wrote:

    Once the bar passes head height, it should be moving directly overhead. Having the elbows pointing forward during the lift assists this. If you are locking out correctly above the head, activating the traps, the bar should be directly overhead, and the anterior head is definitely not taking the entire load.

    That said, I do hear what you are saying, and if you don’t like them, so be it, but I’ll put your question back to you with a different slant. How many trainers have you seen who can overhead press decent numbers that have under developed delts?

    Yep that is the form that I was thinking you might be using and I’ve had that same explanation put to me before. However I think you could almost get the same medial head activation by doing the same movement without any weight. The traps and medial head don’t assist the lift imo, they just get squeezed to pull the shoulder backwards. Almost like an isometric contraction. I’d be interested to see if you think I’m mad or not about that.

    On your second point, I probably haven’t but I’ve seen plenty with underdeveloped medial and posterior heads that may well be capable of pressing overhead.

    April 4, 2008 at 10:30 pm #6180

    Unbuff,

    I don’t think you need high volume for delts. You need the correct form.

    For medial head there is a trick to ensure that you don’t cheat and get the front head to do it for you.

    On laterals, imagine pouring a jug of water out as you lift. What this does is it keeps your index finger lower than your little finger at the top which rotates the shoulder forward to put the stress on the middle delt. As soon as the elbows drop and the shoulder rotates back you are wasting your time. I also lean slightly forward and lock my body so that it can’t move at all.

    With upright rows, lead the movement with the elbows. Get them right up above your ears. I don’t use these any more because I have trouble feeling the delt but they are worth a try for you.

    April 5, 2008 at 12:16 am #6181

    Will do, thanks

    April 6, 2008 at 11:04 am #6182

    @Bull wrote:

    [
    Yep that is the form that I was thinking you might be using and I’ve had that same explanation put to me before. However I think you could almost get the same medial head activation by doing the same movement without any weight. The traps and medial head don’t assist the lift imo, they just get squeezed to pull the shoulder backwards. Almost like an isometric contraction. I’d be interested to see if you think I’m mad or not about that.

    On your second point, I probably haven’t but I’ve seen plenty with underdeveloped medial and posterior heads that may well be capable of pressing overhead.

    You’ve given me something to think about / research Bull.

    When performed correctly, the bar should be driven vertically in a straight line, ie a slight lean backwards to start the drive to allow the bar to pass the face in a straight line before the head comes forward and the bar ends up directly overhead, in line with the ears.

    It was my thinking that this MUST hit the medial head. The trap activation is necessary for stable lock out and helps to have the bar positioned correctly at the top of the movement, eliminating the tendancy to have the bar finish in front rather than directly overhead…

    Much to consider, but it’s the only way we learn ๐Ÿ™‚

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