Cycle Ideas?

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  • June 3, 2008 at 2:59 am #994

    Beginners cycle?

    Perhaps something like this may suit? (this is a question not advice, just what i can gather from researching thus far)

    Gym a PUT load
    Protein
    Creatine
    Dbol (how long for?)
    Test (any suggestions on which one?)

    possibly nolva to prevent gyno if symptoms appear (or should it be taken right from the start regardless?)

    PCT? any ideas here? how important is it? will it prevent ALOT of muscle loss?

    Theoretically of course…

    June 3, 2008 at 5:49 am #6557

    https://muscle.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1693

    Go there, and read my post on page three, gives you all the info you need. I suggest 30mg dbol for the first 4 weeks, along with milk thistle to protect the liver.

    How long have you been training?

    June 3, 2008 at 7:55 am #6558

    @Jackass wrote:

    https://muscle.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1693

    Go there, and read my post on page three, gives you all the info you need. I suggest 30mg dbol for the first 4 weeks, along with milk thistle to protect the liver.

    How long have you been training?

    Flipping brilliant post! bookmarked and I’m going to refer to it directly. I’m pretty sure that dead set answers any question I’ve had about it all!

    I’m 22, 82 kg pretty much straight muscle, maybe 10%bf (cant quite see defined abs and have a lil bit of a stomach). Been training seriously for 6 months @ 4 days a week, in that time I’ve gotten some really good results (not what i initially wanted but pretty good) and now want to kick it up a notch. I know I’ve not been training as long as alot of you guys but I take it as seriously and and not just rushing into it, I have considered it and been researching it for a while now.

    June 3, 2008 at 8:49 am #6559

    Glad you are using the information wisely πŸ™‚

    Just make sure you have everything you need, including ancillaries.
    Personally i believe that if you eat, train, and rest properly, the amount of time you have been training or size that you have isnt relevant.

    Good luck

    June 3, 2008 at 9:34 am #6560

    Man you are at the height of steroid production right now, wait a little before you go screwing with it. Plus 6 months training is really nothing at all for gains.

    What is your training regime, food intake, sleep amount and quality, do you practice any recovery means? You could probably boost your results a hell of a lot over the next year if you put all of this together using smart training and nutrition principles. I am assuming at 6 months training age your knowledge level is not that high.

    Talk to some of the bigger guys like Ian and Kinmassive (just to name a few) and talk to them about how long it really takes to get big, especially before taking on the roids.

    Oh and just because you are serious does not mean roids are a good idea, it does mean in a few years (3 or so) you will be a massive tank as long as the enthusiasm stays., at least you are doing the right thing and researching well, if you are dead set on it you should really know what is going to happen and have an experienced user handy for help. Also what height are you, for all we know you could be an 82kg 5’0 monster, or a 82kg 6’5 stick.

    June 3, 2008 at 1:09 pm #6561

    You make a good point dave, i agree about the training and nutrition, however the amount of time training isnt as important compared to proper diet + training etc.

    Realistically, you are probably right, 6 months isnt a long time to gain a wealth of knowledge, but i guess thats why boards like this exist πŸ™‚

    jetfoley, how long have you been training all together?? Anything previous to the past six months?

    June 4, 2008 at 5:34 am #6562

    Jetfoley,
    Firstly 6 months of training is by no means long enough to start to get on the gear. If you have a proper training regime and correct diet you should be putting on a heap of muscle in the first year. My advice wait till atleats 2 to 3 years of training under your belt before even considering gear.
    Secondly if you are unsure if PCT is important then you still have atleast another 6 months of research to do. You have to remeber that your putting serious drugs in to your body so you want to know what your doing. Also if you think your 10% body fat with a little stomach you don’t have much of an idea. 18% will show a 6 pac. 10% will be low enough to compete. Dbol is also not needed for a first cycle and there is no difference between the different types of test. They are all testoserone, just with differnt carbon atoms added to vary the release rate in to your body.
    Jackass, A dbol only cycle is bad advice. Any sort of oral cycle will give temporary results and there is no need to place the liver under stress. a 350mg Test cycle for a first timer is sufficinet. If you don’t like pins then don’t do roids, simple.

    June 4, 2008 at 5:45 am #6563

    Some good advice posted here, and I just want to emphasize that 6 months of training is not enough to reach your natural potential.

    June 4, 2008 at 5:58 am #6564

    Kinetic, i never said to do a dbol only cycle, thats just down right stupid.

    In his first post he spoke of dbol and test, and then he asked about how to dose the dbol, and which test to go for. I never said to take just the dbol, i said:
    @Jackass wrote:

    …I suggest 30mg dbol for the first 4 weeks…

    The first 4 weeks of what would be a 10-12 week cycle. btw im not having a go at ya, just thought id clear things up πŸ˜‰

    I wouldnt say he is ready to do a cycle, but if he is going to do one, he might aswell know how to do it properly.

    As for the oral only, its a big misconception that you will loose all your gains. Muscle is muscle, so if its grown naturally, with the use of injectables or orals, its still muscle, the only difference being is that most people havnt heard of, or never practice pct. Most people that do oral only cycles are pretty much clueless about steroids and how to use them, so they just shut down the natural production, gain a whole lot of water weight, then loose most of it in the end since they are shut down. Now im not advocating that anyone do an oral only cycle since there is much better alternatives, ie test, however orals are just as useful as injectables.

    June 4, 2008 at 9:20 am #6565

    Only difference between an oral and a injectable is the fact that it has to go through the gut to be used which neutralizes a lot of its effectiveness. That means it is less efficient, slower and weaker than injectables.

    Many people can also not inject themselves due to their phobias. Both methods will result in similar outcomes when taking internal test levels (meaning more orals) and will result the same receptor downgrade.

    You are both right, post cycle therapy is HUGELY important and also the structure of the cycle to maximise test levels and limit reductions in receptor abilities. You just had a small misunderstanding. I say to this guy and any of the others who read this, you need a STRONG physiological and chemical background to properly adminster steriods properly to acheive maximal effect and minimal disadvantages. And even when this occurs there will always be practical experience needed to learn how to manipulate your test levels for different purposes, times etc etc.

    If you are going to spend the money, time and damage your body using steriods you should put in hours upon hours of scientific and practical research before even thinking of starting a cycle.

    June 4, 2008 at 10:46 am #6566

    Sorry Jackass, My bad. Bit of a misunderstanding. As for the orals, I agree that muscle is muscle but the gains people get from dbol is mostly water, so they may gain 5kg, but loose 4kg even with the appropriate pct.

    Dave as for the orals, no effeticeness is reduced when c17 seriods are absorbed orally. The altered 17th carbon position will ensure that all the testoterone will survive the first pass of the liver meaning that all the test in the tablet will make it to the blood stream.

    IMO the only good thing orals are for is to “kick start” a cycle while waiting for the longer acting esters to build up a descent level of test in the blood streeam. The half lives of these drugs are to short for any long term gains. Something that I always remeber is whats gained quickly will also be lost quickly.

    June 4, 2008 at 10:57 am #6567

    Something that I always remeber is whats gained quickly will also be lost quickly.

    Perfect quote right there, it should be used in all steriod use information.

    Good info about the oral steriods too that is exactly the kind of information this guy needs to get him started.[/quote]

    June 4, 2008 at 4:26 pm #6568

    This is great stuff guys.
    I think you are right, I’ll wait another 3-6 months before i start off. I am still getting ok gains at the moment so I think i’ll wait till they stop or at least diminish. But im not waiting 3 years! lol too impatient!

    As for a few of the questions raised, I’m 6foot and 82 kilos, and are u SURE that is right about the bf% being that high?? When I joined the gym I even had a PT say i was around 18% then, and i toned heeps since.. As for diet and weight training;

    2 protein shakes a day, creatine b4 every gym session, Daily multivitamins, 3 solid meals a day with lots of meats/carbs (still get a few serves of vegies tho) and staying away from crap (mosty πŸ˜‰ ) and i’ve pretty much quit drinking.

    Gym 4 days a week all of it free weights sept for lats, legs and a couple on tris. Doing 3 sets with reps around 12-10-8, when i can get them up to 15-13-10 I raise the weights and end up with reps around 10 – 9 – 7 (bare minimum). 3 exercises per muscle eg for Chest; Bdell Bench, Incline Bench, and Flys.
    day one is Chest, Tris and Abs, Day two is Bis, Sholders and Back Day 3 is Legs and day 4 usaully starts me back on chest etc.
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    Damn shame it isn’t as easy as I initially thought 3 months ago (pop a pill once a week -> get huge).

    So i’ll add Nolva and clomid for PCT. Still wanna know how much weight I’m likely to loose during PCT… Say i put on 10 kg over the 10 week cycle (that isn’t far from right is it?) what do u think i’d loose if i kept the same training/diet going on while using nolva/clomid?

    June 4, 2008 at 10:40 pm #6569

    Go to T-Nation.com and search the articles for both steriod information and how to train properly (diet, nutrition). They have some great information there which you should go through and also can lead to some books by knowledgable people on how to take roids and there effects.

    Personally I would take that bodypart split routine and toss it and go for either a full body routine or upper lower split. Also you need to start lifting heavy (thats 3-5 reps per set doing more sets per exercise), what are the numbers for your lifts? do you squat or deadlift? if not start doing it they will increase your size dramatically. Also start including chin ups. dips all those heavy compound exercises. A basic idea for a routine would be this:

    Heavy compound exercise 3-5 reps (do 20-25 reps total over your sets) Accessory exercise 7-12 reps (do about 3 sets for these)

    Legs:
    HCE – Back squat, Front Squat, Deadlift, Sumo Deadlift
    AE- Lunge, Step up, Leg curls, single leg squat etc
    Upper Pushing:
    HCE – Bench Press, Board Press, Military Press,
    AC – Dumbbell press, front/lateral raises, flyes,
    Upper Pulling:
    HCE – Chinup, Bent Over Row, T-Row, Horizontal pullup, cable rows
    AC – Face Pulls, shrugs, reverse flyes

    Choose 1 exercise from each do this 3 times a week and look to change it up the exercise choice every 3 weeks and do this for about 4-6 months. You are still a begginer and this will get your strength up and put on some size untill you are ready for any more volume body part splits etc (there would be a lot of difference in a good program design compared to what you were doing).

    With the diet:

    Eat 6 meals a day every 2-3 hours
    Eat as many vegies as you can
    Eat healthy fats (Omega 3’s, unsaturated fats) steriods are created from cholesterol in your body and you need to be supplying good quality fats to keep this performing at its best (and they are integral to many other body functions)
    Eat a lot if you want to put on size BUT make it healthy (count your calories for a week and see what you eat on average then work out what you should be eating). Serious people do this day in day out
    Make sure you like what you eat otherwise you will stop eating properly and once that happens you will not grow or decrease body fat the way you want.

    The other guys will answer your specifics on post cycle stuff, they have the experience where it matters.

    I do have some physiological information about steriods for you. Steriods increase muscle mass (shock horror bet you didnt know that) BUT they do not increase connective tissue size and strength. So you go on a cycle and increase your muscle by 10kg and you strength goes up like crazy you are doing new huge weights you didnt think you could get to so fast. Then suddenly you injury yourself (tendonitis, complete tendon tear etc) and you are out for weeks to months and lose everything. This was because you did not have that training base where you increased tendon strength (they grow ever so slowly due to near to nonexistent blood flow) before starting on the steroids. You need this tendon strength from proper training (3 years+) or you can not transfer the force from your muscles to move your joints because those weak girly tendons of yours just can not take the strain (and it is a lot of strain). Hopefully this has helped you understand the need to train hard and smart for a long period before considering steriod use. I will not use steriods myself but I also do not think people who want to do it should not be allowed, but those who do, need to do it right and have all the information and not just jump into it (that is how it seems to work for normal people). You are only young if you train hard and smart for the next 3 years you will be my age and strong and big and then you should THINK about roid use. In those 3 years you could learn a lot about steriods and their applications, how they damage your body terribly when overused and how they can be properly used to make long lasting gains. Give it some time you just need to be patient.

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